Todays guest, Megan DiPiero is a well known headshot and beauty portrait photographer from southwest Florida. She is also an acclaimed photography business mentor and coach for photographers and the creator of the the popular Rise to the Top Facebook group where she shares her business tips to help and encourage other photographers to grow and live a life of abundance. Today I welcome Megan DiPiero
Loving this Interview? Get more great content by becoming a premium member of the podcast!
In This Episode You'll Learn:
When Megan Started to take photography seriously
How Megan learned photography
How Megan built a photography business while raising kids
What is Womans beauty photography
Who inspired Megan to pursue beauty photogrpahy
How Megan deals with “Difficult” clients
Why Megan does not recommend going to college to learn photography
How to figure out what to charge for your photography
How to handle clients when you have raised your photography pricing
How Megan defines marketing for photographers
Simple marketing tips that new photographers can impliment
How Megan makes decisions on what to work on in her business
The one thing Megan wants all photographers to know about shooting manual
Resources:
Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!
Full Episode Transcription:
Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically by Temi.com and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.
Raymond: 00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginning photography podcast and I once considered spending $1,000 on a single case of stones vertical Epic series of beers. And I actually regret that I did not. So you live and learn though, right? All right, let's get into today's interview.
Intro: 00:22 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now with you as always, husband, father, home brewer, LA Dodger fan and Indianapolis wedding photographer, Raymond Hatfield
Raymond: 00:51 Friends. Welcome one. Welcome all. I am super happy to have you all here today. Whether this is your first episode in the beginning of photography podcast or your 103rd teenth, a hundred and 14th episode of the beginning of photography podcast, whatever it is. Again, I'm happy to have you guys here, especially today. Today is a fun episode that is a bit of a, a, a change from the norm, but I think that it will really appeal to a lot of you listeners out there who want to do more with your photography than just take beautiful pictures of your kids and hopefully aspire to one day maybe maybe turn this into a little side hustle or even a full time hustle. But we'll get into that in just a second. It has been a really, really, really big week for me, especially seeing all of the new patrons of the podcast.
Raymond: 01:43 This is the response is, has been very humbling for sure. So if you don't know last week I announced that starting October 1st. Okay, there will be two versions of this podcast. There will be one free version, which is about a half hour or so in length and focused on just the absolute beginner. And then there will be a full uncut paid version where you will get more actionable content geared towards those of you who have had your camera for more than just a few weeks and want just more actionable info to just like grow, you know, gripped your teeth into. So on top of that becoming a patron of the podcast, you will also get a monthly in depth video where I will be covering topics like how to get sharper photos and how to get the most out of your crop sensor camera if you can't afford a full frame camera.
Raymond: 02:34 In fact, those videos well they just really let me expand on my ideas more so than just what would keep the attention of, of people on YouTube. And both of those videos are actually live right now in the Patrion for the podcast. So again, if you are interested in signing up for the full version of the podcast and getting these great videos, it is just $5 a month for the first 25 patrons and you can sign up over@patrion.com forward slash beginner photography podcast. Also in the coming months, I will be creating some digital content for you to use in your photography business. So if you're looking to start one, which is perfect that we're talking to who we're talking with today, but right now if you sign up again, you will get my best downloads, my wedding and model release contracts, all of the light room presets and my popular ebook beyond photography basics altogether.
Raymond: 03:29 Once again, that is a $55 value that you can get right now for only the first 25 patrons for just $5 a month before the price goes up to $10 a month. So one last time if you want in a, before the price doubles to $10 a month, head over to patrion.com forward slash beginner photography podcast. Again, that is patron P a T R E O n.com forward slash beginning photography podcast. And if you're driving and don't have anything to write that down, just head over to beginner photography, podcast.com. It will be right there on the homepage for you to click through and sign up. Also, also just, you know, just to sweeten the deal if you sign up and you are just not blown away by the content. No worries. I understand. I am going to give you all of your money back and you can just keep the download a book goodies.
Raymond: 04:19 Okay. It's that easy. Seriously, I think that this is going to be a great offer for, for the majority of you listeners and and if it's not for you then, then I don't want you to keep paying and I'll give you your money back. So that's it. That is my plug for this week's interview. That's it. Let's get into today's interview. This week, we're talking all about business with somebody who well as you will hear him, the interview is killing it and I try to get some tips out of her that will get you thinking and just making decisions more like a business. And I know that for those of you who aspire to one day take your photography full time, this is just going to be the best interview for you. I know that you're going to enjoy it as much as I did interviewing.
Raymond: 05:04 So let's get into today's interview with Megan DiPiero. Today's guest is well known headshot and beauty portrait photographer from Southwest Florida. She is also an acclaimed mentor and business coach for photographers and the creator of the very popular rise to the top photography Facebook group where she shares her business tips to help and encourage other photographers to grow and live a life of abundance today. I'm so excited to be talking to Megan DiPiero. Megan, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you. So like I said I, I've, I've been following along for with you for a while now. So this is, I have a lot of questions that that, that I've gotten just from hearing you speak and being a part of the Facebook group and hearing things that I think this is just going to be a wonderful episode that I'm really excited to get into. But, but before we get into that, before we get into how you got to where you are today, cause I know that that is a very long road. Can you tell me how you even first got your start in photography?
Megan DiPiero: 06:08 Oh, sure. So I'm like so many moms, moms with a camera, right? I was in high school always studying filmmaking and taking pictures. Then a few classes here or there, college, I would take a roll of film a week just as a fun activity. But then it really started to get real when my kids were born. That was around 2005 and that was right on the cusp of digital. So then I got a really horrible resolution, digital camera. I mean, my phone is about 10 times as good as that camera was. And I just was able to take a million pictures a day and it was fun. So before long, a lot of people were looking at my pictures and saying, you take such great pictures, we take pictures of my camp, my kids, and that's how I got into it. So it was all just fun and a passion ever since childhood. And then my kids inspired me more and then eventually just evolved into a business.
Raymond: 07:00 So you say that that it was just fun and that's how you grew, but you had to have had some source of photography education. Where, where would that have came after you got your DSLR?
Megan DiPiero: 07:10 I wish I did. I really didn't. There was the the closest we had investigated. What if I went to college for it and you know, as an adult, which is always kind of interesting to consider going back to college as a 30 something. But I, there was a school in Fort Lauderdale, which was about two and a half, three hours away. And at the time with, you know, little babies, they were two and four basically. And I thought, well how am I going to drive six hours round trip to go to school every day? So we really, we explored it but we scrapped it pretty quickly and then it just came down to, well I have to teach myself. So it was all books and I gave myself a self study project. A flicker was really popular then. So yeah, we did the, I did the three 65 self portraits and I got to all of 65 days.
Megan DiPiero: 07:57 I didn't make it the whole year, but every day thinking a picture of myself and having to stage that and think through it creatively. And technically that was my education. And that's the beauty of digital. You can just throw it away if it doesn't work. So it'd be like 300 takes for one picture a day and made a ton of mistakes and it all worked out. And then as a, about a year or two after that is when I discovered workshops like WPPI imaging. Those are the major us conventions that we have. And also creative live, so creative live. I was a little too early for creative live when I first started, but now, Oh my God, what a treasure trove that is. Yeah. You could just spend like infinity on creative live and get the best education in the world. And I've come to find out that like actually college for photography is not all it's cracked up to be because it doesn't focus so much on business and people get, I think people fresh out of photography school sometimes a little too artsy with it. Whereas I really wanted to learn the practical saleable portrait skills.
Raymond: 09:01 Yeah, that's interesting. We've definitely talked on the podcast plenty of times about the practicality of going to college for photography and I a M like you growing up, interested in film. I went to film school originally. I didn't even want to be a photographer. I wanted to be a cinematographer and it wasn't until I got on set that I was like, ah, I don't think that this is for me. But I did have that formal education and I can kind of speak to the merits that it's, you could learn everything that you need to through YouTube or online resources or creative live like you said. Yeah. And you mentioned there that you learned through some books. Do you have any favorites offhand that maybe the listener could, could check out?
Megan DiPiero: 09:39 You know, they're probably not even in print still cause we're talking like 2010, you know, the industry moves so fast that you just don't see those same things be popular anymore. But I would just go to the bookstore, go to the library, see what was out there on photography. And honestly, if you went to say Barnes and Nobles right now, you would certainly find like an updated version of something. But gosh, it's just like everything could be your education, podcasts. You know, what's in the bookstore, what's on the bookshelf, what's on creative live. There's just what magazines, Oh my gosh, just the magazine rack is such an inspiration for me. So, you know, it's almost like, I don't even need to say a specific resource. Just open your eyes and there's photography.
Raymond: 10:21 That's true. That's true. You said that when you first started off, some of your friends started coming to you saying that you take really good pictures of kids and asked you to take pictures of heirs, but now you, you focus primarily on headshots and beauty. Is that correct? Yes. So how did you, how did you discover that that's what it is that you loved and can you tell me about you like your very first like paid client?
Megan DiPiero: 10:44 Oh gosh. Okay. So the very first paid client was a contact I had through church and it was someone's friend's daughter was getting married and needed engagement photos. And I had no idea. I didn't even know that was a thing. I didn't have engagement photos. So I said, okay, just took him down to the beach, did a session. And I think that this is what a lot of people find is that I think most photographers who are successful, when they first started, they probably had a little more soul of success because if you tried it and you were just absolutely horrible, you would move on. But I think I was successful because I can still look back to that very first session and see, not, you know, award winning images. But I can see that there was expression, I had a little bit of an idea of what good light would look like. You know, I mean just a very small idea. But you know, I was able to get the couple interacting and I got a whopping paycheck of $70 and I took my family out to dinner. And I mean these days, like when I do a headshot session, I make $7,000 so it can be a bit different. But I was so excited by that first paycheck that really made me think, Oh, I can make money at this. All right.
Raymond: 11:57 It's funny, a, someone in the Facebook group today just mentioned a Polly just did his first senior session and he said that he got paid $70 for the session as well. And he was just so excited for that. So it's great to see that you're living proof that there's growth and just to look forward to a future. But we didn't really touch on how you made a transition or just started focusing primarily on, on headshots or in beauty.
Megan DiPiero: 12:23 Yeah, so head shots was kind of an accident. Beauty was that I was doing these creative projects just to kind of feed my soul and to do for image competition. And I was very attracted to the concept of exploring, you know, women's beauty, like how the, the strides that we have to go through to be beautiful from makeup to hair to styling. And even the whole concept of, you know, what does it mean to be feminine and how, you know, can you escape it, can you not, you know, there's just so many things to the female human being that just fascinated me. So I was doing these creative projects, trying to tell a story about it and I just loved it. And then right about that time I stumbled upon Sue Bryce was showing videos on creative live of how she had done beauty.
Megan DiPiero: 13:08 And I didn't even know that was a thing. I was like, Oh, that's a thing. And she had been doing it for 20 years, but she really exploded on the educator scene because apparently resonate with a lot of people. And I was just first in like that first workshop I saw hooked me and I said, wow, this is what I'm doing and I can do it and make money at it. And headshots was kind of the same thing. It was a happy accident. It was. I've always been fascinated with faces and even like right now I'm trying to resist like staring at the catch lights in your eyes and analyze people, light pattern, you know, I just love faces and I love to say, how can I make someone's face look really good? And I was, when I was taking these beauty portraits, I was just using prime lenses, zooming in with my feet and capturing these beautiful head and shoulder portraits.
Megan DiPiero: 13:54 And so my clients came to me. I think most of my photography career has been other people coming to me and saying, will you do this for me? So I didn't know I was headshot photographer until someone said, well, will you do my head shots? And I said, I don't do head shots. I do family portraits and beauty portraits. And they said, no, no, you do head shots. See this is a shot of a head that I saw on your portfolio. And I was like, Oh, I guess I do head shots. So I just stumbled into it that way that my clients found. I mean, basically I think when you follow your passion, then people will see the best in you and they'll draw you out to create more of that. So I think a lot of it is that you don't need to necessarily plan what your trajectory is. Just see where your curiosity takes you and where your clients take you and just follow that.
Raymond: 14:40 Wow. That was a, that was really powerful there. That was a simple kind of question that led into something a little deeper I guess. So I really appreciate that. Jeez. That's a, it's a very funny story, especially the part about like following your, your passion and, and once it is that you find what it is that you love to do, people will come to you for that. And I, I hear that a lot. And I think that that's great information. But you as an educator of other photographers, is there any other information that you hear that is just bad information that is being taught to photographers they should just not listen to or hasn't worked for you?
Megan DiPiero: 15:18 Well I would say that I think a lot of people get tripped up trying to impress other photographers. Like for the longest time I was embarrassed that I shoot in auto and there's a meme that goes around that says, and you've probably seen this, everyone's a photographer until manual mode. And every time I see that I have a talking to with whoever posted that image because I think I now am a leader that's respected in the community. And so many people think, Oh, that's a funny joke. And to me, I don't think that's a funny joke because I think that's like one way that we intimidate people as professionals and we say you're not a professional and less and there doesn't have to be rules around what, how are you a professional? I had a 17 year old high school senior client and he showed me some video work he had been doing just for fun, just photographing his friends on skateboards and I meanwhile had studied cinematography and spent thousands and thousands of dollars learning the ins and outs of production.
Megan DiPiero: 16:18 And this kid was just taking it on again as a passion project. He just wanted to film his friends and it was incredible. And of course now if he had the Polish and the resources and put more time into it, then he would be even better still. But just the raw talent of this kid. And so I think that when we get tripped up by you have to light a certain way, which I don't. I do flat lighting, which is not, you know, the Rembrandt lighting with the three to one shadow ratio. I just liked what looks pretty to my eyes and I shoot an auto. I don't shoot in manual. I don't find it's important because I'm shooting in a natural light studio. So for me it's easier to be an auto because if a sun goes behind a cloud, my exposure is going to really quickly switch. And I don't want to be hung up on the technical, I want to be interacting with my client, making them feel good. And I don't want to have to access that technical side of my brain. I just want to be in the emotion with the client the entire time. So I think it's just like use what works for you and don't feel that you have to impress. If you love something, do that thing right, wrong, indifferent, just go for it.
Raymond: 17:23 Wow. so just to clarify when you, when you shoot, are you, you're leaving it in like the green auto box or are you using them?
Megan DiPiero: 17:32 I made your priorities. Yes.
Raymond: 17:35 So, so one of the,
Megan DiPiero: 17:36 Not straight up and, right.
Raymond: 17:40 It's funny, again, we had another discussion in the group today from somebody who just took the leap and I was like, I'm gonna start shooting in manual and like wished me luck. And I like, Oh, you know, good luck. This is great. But you know, when I go out and I shoot weddings, I do shoot manual, but when I shoot like all my family work, all of that is just an aperture priority because like you said, it's easier to focus on what's going on in front of the camera instead of worrying about all the details for just a simple like family family photos. So thank you for clarifying that. That was a that's great to hear. That's great to hear. Okay. So I mentioned earlier to you, I think before we started recording that I went through your rise to the top archives, which I will of course link to in the show notes because I think that it is wonderful for anybody who wants to I, I don't want to say just say start a business, but like, even as somebody who has been in business just get like a refresher courses.
Raymond: 18:35 So there's one section in particular where you talk about dealing with difficult clients. Okay. And when we start off, I think that we tend to get a good deal of them. Right. I think that we just see them as difficult clients because when we're new as photographers, we think of ourselves as artists. Right? and in the beginning rather than we think of ourselves as artists rather than a service provider. But I know that you are actually a fan of difficult clients. So can you tell us what that means and why you love working with them?
Megan DiPiero: 19:14 Yeah. Well, so you probably remember this probably fresher in your mind in mind, cause I may have written out about a year ago, but I think that the hook of that is that I said how to deal with difficult clients and I wrote a scenario where, Oh my God, these clients, how dare they, and the end of that is that there are no difficult clients. In my mind. There are no difficult clients because here's the thing. Your client has something they want and you can offer that to them or you can not. You choose if you decide that a client wants something that you don't Excel at. For example, I have a client who wants event photography. I, I lay down the law that I do not do event photography. Like that is just not in my wheelhouse. It's not in my passion. I'm not interested in it in the least.
Megan DiPiero: 19:55 So then yes, if I took that gig, then that client would be hell for me because that's not what I enjoy. So if I decided to take that on, that's on me. I have to find a way to like that and to be good at that because I said yes to it, but what I'm not, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to take something that doesn't make me feel good. I'm going to take something that I can find love for and if I have a client who wants something that I love and it's something that they love, then I just need to find a way to be on the same page as them. So if they're throwing something at me that's challenging, it's not, you're wrong, I'm right. It's that how can I get on the same side as you so that I can serve you and find out what you need and make it right.
Megan DiPiero: 20:37 Like if you're late to the session, I have to ask myself, what did I do wrong? Maybe I didn't fully prepare the client. Maybe they were running behind because they didn't have other clothing options set aside. And perhaps I can help a client by preparing those clothing op options with them and for them. So there's always a learning experience that I can take from something. If a client is being difficult, it's probably because there's a piece of the puzzle that I missed, then I miss read or that I wasn't proactive enough to help them with. And so I'm always just trying to say, you know, and I think this comes from my experience in, I studied theater briefly in college and I learned that there are no villains because no one thinks of themselves as I'm the bad guy. Everyone is just, they're all just trying to win at what they think they must win at.
Megan DiPiero: 21:21 And so when I look at a client who's, you know, everyone knows about the typical bride Zilla that's not a bride Zilla she's not trying to be evil. She just has a ton of stress. A ton of pressure to make this, fulfill her every dream. So if you can get on her side and be like, how can I fulfill your every dream? What can I do to make this better for you? Suddenly she's not a bride Zilla she's someone you can have empathy for that you can work with and work for and you know, really help make her day better. So that's my goal.
Raymond: 21:50 Wow. What so much there that you expanded on? That wasn't even in, in the in the archives there. That was, that was wonderful to hear. Thank you so much. And I think you're absolutely right. I think just simple education is really where a lot of the, like, newer photographers fall short, even when it comes to just like, like what people can expect or, or even what they will be receiving as, as deliverables or even what they can do with their photos. I know a lot of photographers I hear get upset because their clients want all the raw files and they, Oh, well, no, none at all.
Megan DiPiero: 22:22 Oh,
Raymond: 22:23 They're, they don't. They know. But like you said, they don't know. So simple education could totally get rid of that problem altogether. I love that. Next is, is probably in the journey of a photographer. First client they work with might be difficult to them, but really maybe it was the photographers photographers fault. But the second thing that they're probably going to deal with is realizing that they charged way too little for their own services. Right. Rising prices is a big deal for photographers. And kind of when I started, I had this idea that if I just raised my prices by like $100 every wedding, then then eventually I'll get up to where I want to a to B. But when I read your, your step method, it was, it blew my idea out of the water and it made just made so much more sense. I'm coming from both portrait and like an event style of photography. Can you talk about for one, what the step method is and then for two, how we can figure out what we should be charging for our own services?
Megan DiPiero: 23:27 Sure. All right. So my favorite thing to do with photographers is to just do what I call back of the bar napkin sketch. So let's sit together. Let's you know, bust out a pen and a napkin and I'm just going to tell you where you need to be priced. And the way that you do that is you first picture, what do you want your income to be? You know, and, and it should be big. It should be grand. Because honestly, if you just want to make 20,000 you could work at Walmart and make 20,000 you don't have to have the stress and nothing disparaging against Walmart. I mean, you can work a wage job and make great wages, but you know, if you want to take on the stress and the grief and the, you know, sometimes sleepless nights of having everything fall on your shoulders as business owner, then you should make, you know, I think CEO wages, right?
Megan DiPiero: 24:10 You're the owner of the business, you're steering it, make the money that matters. So number one, you say, what's your income? Then really easy formula is to multiply that by two. Because if you want 50% to be your net, which is a good benchmark, which you'll learn more about when you get into the doing business analysis, super easy, just take your income multiplied by two divided by the number of clients you want to work with per year. And how you figure that out is how many clients is realistic to work with per week. For most of the photographers I work with it the answers to, and it really doesn't have to be that many because if you want to do that high customer touch, solving everyone's problems, you know, being with them to pick out their clothes and write their kids birthday cards and all that stuff.
Megan DiPiero: 24:54 I mean if you want that kind of close interaction, you really can't work in a high volume model. So low volume is the answer for me. So if I only want, let's say a hundred clients per year, which is a really attainable number, I just take that gross sales, the income times two divided by a hundred there's my numbers. So that's what I need to make per client. And so that's, it's a very shortcut cliff notes version of how to come up with how much you need per client. But at least it's starting somewhere. It's starting with a rough sketch and but then you need to say, okay, well what most people do is they do, they don't do any of that work. They don't put pen to paper at all. They just say, well this feels right. And that's where I started. I was like, well, $70 that feels right for an hour until I realized it wasn't an hour of my work because then I spent, you know, 20 hours editing and I spent, you know, five hours on email trying to correspond with this person.
Megan DiPiero: 25:47 And then I had to, you know, buy the disc and there's just so much extra pieces. Make a slide show all these little pieces come together and you realize you spent an entire week on what you thought was an hour of your time. And then you do the math of an entire week divided by 70 and you get really depressed. So if you instead don't go with your feelings but go with tend to paper hard numbers, then you're going to say, this is where I need to price. And the step method says rather than take a price and inch it up, an inch it up an inch it up year after year, you instead take the bandaid off all at once, price where you need to be and now you don't have to inch anything up. But what you do is you step the discounts and down. So you would say to your first client, Hey, I'm trying something new.
Megan DiPiero: 26:35 I've got this really exciting product line or this really exciting genre I want to shoot and for you I would be happy to offer this to you at 30% off my entire product line. So you're going to get 30% off. Here's what my prices look like, here's what my products look like. You want to try this? And there'll be like 30% off. Cool. And people love that because it's fun to be on the insider scoop and be a beta tester and be able to give your thoughts and feedback. And then they now know because they have exposure to your actual price list that's going to help you achieve that average sales goal. So when they refer their friend, they're not going to say, Oh, by the way, I got a 30% off. They're just going to say, go to Megan. She's amazing. She'll take great care of you.
Megan DiPiero: 27:16 I love my portraits, I love my experience. And now she never needs to tell anyone that she got discount. It's just like, Oh yeah, and by the way, she's expensive, you know? And that's fine. So I really like that approach and it makes it so much better because if you only inch up your prices every time you switch prices, you are almost like starting new with a new clientele because someone who spent $500 last year is going to be really upset if they refer their friend. And now suddenly you're twice as expensive. So you want to just like start with the right base and then all your work is going to be done because you're going to just continue working with that base forever and ever. So how long do we offer that 30% discount? So when I first did it, I changed my prices from $250 for digitals to $2,500 for digitals overnight.
Megan DiPiero: 28:06 Yes, because I did the pen to paper analysis and I said, guess what? I'm charging 10 times as little as I need to be charging. And I said, okay, so $2,500 I mean I did really quickly discover that $70 was wrong. And then I went to two 50 cause that felt right. But then I still knew that two 50 feeling right wasn't the right answer. And so I did for my, I decided that I would do the first 10 clients will get 30% off, the next 10 clients will get 20% off, the next 10 clients will get 10% off. And I was going to step down that discount as I go. Well, what happened was the very first person I had, I gave them 30% off and they bought my top package, which was even more than 2,500 and then discounted down, it came to around 2,500.
Megan DiPiero: 28:47 So after that I instantly had courage. And there's this great quote, I love it. It's from this old movie, old ish with George Clooney and and Mark Wahlberg, I think it's called three Kings. And he says, yes, I love that movie. They're about to go into battle. And you know, George Clooney's, the Colonel or whatever, and he says, they have to go like storm this, this hideout. And he says, well, you're scared to do this now, right? He goes, yeah. And he goes, well, how am I going to do this? He's like, here's what you do. You do the thing that scares you shitless and you get the courage after. And he goes, well, that's an ass backwards way to do it. He goes, that's just the way it is. And that's the way it is. You do the thing you're scared of expletive or no, and then you get the courage after. So it was once I had done that and I saw that, Oh my God, now people are paying me 10 times as much as I thought they would, I've done it. I didn't need that discount anymore. It was just a crutch that made me feel good, but my client didn't need it. I didn't need it. And from then onwards I was [inaudible].
Raymond: 29:46 That's great. How did, how did you attract a, a client going from $250 for digitals to $2,500 for, for digitals that quickly. Cause you said that it was one of your first, right?
Megan DiPiero: 29:57 Sure. Yeah. Well a lot. The answer is I didn't attract a lot of people. A lot of people repelled. I had you know, 90% of my clients walked because my first year in business I was at two 50 and then everybody said, I don't understand the difference. And they didn't value it and they walked away. But, but guess what? You don't need 100% of clients. The 1%, the 10% rather that stuck was enough because now my prices are 10 times as high. So I made the same amount of money with one client as I previously did with 10. So did it matter that nine of them had walked? So the answer of how you attract that client is that you find the client who values what you're offering, who values the experience, who wants the handholding, who wants the extra service, and then you just deliver that.
Raymond: 30:41 Perfect. So this kind of kind of goes into my next question which is a little bit about marketing, but before we get actually into the question, can you give a quick definition of what marketing is for photographers?
Megan DiPiero: 30:55 Oh yeah. Okay. So I can tell you what marketing is not. Marketing is not sitting behind your computer. And that's what so many people think it is. They're like, Megan, I'm doing so much marketing. So yeah, what are you doing? I'm on Instagram every day. I'm on Facebook every day I have a LinkedIn and an SEO and dah, dah, dah. I'm like, okay, wait, what you did was computer work. That's what you did. Like that's what marketing is. It's all one thing. Everything in one basket. Now it feels diversified because you're doing everything, but what you're really doing is you're hiding out behind your screen because you're afraid to take a risk. And so what I think marketing is is that marketing is nothing less than meeting people. It's about meeting people. And yes, they're going to be strangers at first and then you have to take a stranger and turn that stranger into a friend and then you'd take that friend, you gain their trust, you invite them in to become your client.
Megan DiPiero: 31:49 That's all it is. So when I started, I didn't, I knew that my client was not going to be the circle of friends. I immediately had, I said, I need to meet, I need new friends. Basically. That's all I said. I got to go find new people who are going to value what I'm doing. And at the time that was beauty portraits. And I said, I need a woman who cares about you know, who, who values that feeling of youth of being cared for. That image matters to her. And that was not going to be my, you know, Birkenstock wearing hippie friends at the time. I was like, I need a new client. So I went out and I just started, you know, shaking hands with business owners, introducing myself, going to events where I knew 0.0 people and meeting folks in my community, spending money at places where I thought my client would shop and her money so I could accidentally bump into new people.
Megan DiPiero: 32:42 And it was just a matter of getting out and saying hi and being brave enough to shake hands with a complete stranger. And it was absolutely hellish. I'm an extrovert and this scared me to death, but I did it and I'm really glad I did. And I had to do it because the same year that I launched my beauty portrait brand was the same year that my husband quit his job and came into business with me. So every, yeah, every single dollar that came in our door from then on came from the business that I was creating. So I had to perform and [inaudible]. Yup. Well you got to do it. You do it.
Raymond: 33:24 So you, you kinda answered what the next question was going to be there. But I would, so I would say that 100% of the listeners today are not ready to take out any sort of full page ad in a magazine or anything like that to, to advertise their service. But when it comes to marketing, that's the number one thing they need to do. And they need to get out and they need to, to shake hands and like meet people face to face. But, and I'm not trying to get away from that. I'm not trying to diminish that as, as a great source because I can attest that it is for those who are listening right now and maybe don't have the time because of their full time job, let's just say. Yeah. Is there any is there anything else is there any simple little things that the listeners can take to implement today to start marketing themselves in their services?
Megan DiPiero: 34:18 You're not going to like my answer. No, no. Sure. You can do other things, but that's not been my secret to success. I'm sure that there are other people who would say, Oh yes, here's what you do. But my secret to success has been from the very beginning and remains to this day, making relationships, converting, converting strangers to friends, converting friends to clients. That's always been my way and it's been immensely successful. And I think the reason why it's so successful for me is because it is the risk that other people are not willing to take. And so that's why it works. But I also don't think that networking has to be as hard as people think it is. So for example, one time someone asked me if you were dropped into a brand new city and had to start your business there, what would you do?
Megan DiPiero: 35:03 And here's what I would do. I would go to the places where my clients are going. So if my clients shop at whole foods, I'm shopping at Wholefoods. If my clients are getting their nails done every week, I'm getting my nails done every week. If my clients are, I don't know, like playing Mahjong on a Sunday morning, I'm playing, I'm learning how to play Mahjong. Like, that's what I would do. I would go and I would, you know, try to project and understand who would be a great client for me. And then I would go and I would basically infiltrate their circles. I would go become a part of their, and it doesn't have to be that hard because I'll bet that your listeners, although they are, you know, perhaps working full time job, I'll bet that if they were a beauty portrait client like me that they maybe do already get their nails done.
Megan DiPiero: 35:49 So I would simply ask them, where are you getting your nails done? Are you getting your nails done at a place that could lead to future relationships? If you're already getting your hair cut every, every month, where are you getting your haircut? I have intentionally chosen you know, my business is very high end. My clients, like I said, they spend, you know, 3000 at least. They often spend quite a bit more. And so I get my haircut at a place that is the most expensive salon in town. In fact, I have been known to spend $1,000 there. So, you know, I have chosen that and I've said this is where my client is going to be. So that's where I'm going to be. Now let's say you're not a beauty portrait photographer. Let's say you're a family photographer and you'd like to photograph candids of young kids at the beach. Well then go to a mommy and me Jim class, you know, or a show up at a carnival in your town, you know, do things with your kids that you're going to be doing anyway, but just make the chance and say hi to someone while you're there. So that's a simple as it can be. It doesn't have to be during the day. It doesn't have to be any kind of formal networking event. It just means you have to go find a stranger and then make a friend.
Raymond: 36:56 I love that. I love the idea of just getting in front of somebody. You, you, you know what you're really good at. You're really good at like coming up with like little naming conventions for, for everything throughout life. And I love that. The next thing that I wanted to talk about was actually your idea or your process of love it, shove it and rise above it. That I think is the most like eloquent way to, to kind of sum up all of the decision making that you need to make as a photographer. Can you talk a little bit about that and, and, and what they all mean and how it can help somebody who's just starting out.
Megan DiPiero: 37:32 Yeah. Okay. So love it. Shoving and rise above it. And actually this could even work beyond work. This can just be your life in general. There's, there's going to be tasks that we have to do. So for example, let's even take something that has nothing to do with business. Let's say cooking a healthy meal. So you're a mom like me and you want to feed your family a healthy meal. Well, I happen to hate cooking passionately. I have never liked to cook my entire life. I think it's because growing up my sister was always the cook, the designated cook, and you know, you can't do the same thing your sister does. So she zigged denies act. So I always hated cooking. And then when I first became pregnant in my late twenties, I said, Oh my God, I need to get a cookbook. I can't go to a restaurant every single day with a newborn.
Megan DiPiero: 38:18 So I've just always hated cooking. But I want my family to eat well. So I asked myself, okay, first of all, is there a way that I can love this? Can I basically trick myself into loving cooking? So what would that look like? Well, what if I played my favorite music or listen to an audible book while I was cooking? What if I invited my friends over and we cook together and we made meals for the week? What if I got my kids involved and they helped cook and shop and all that stuff. So that's the love-hate piece. How can you find a way to love a task that basically is something you dread? Now. I asked myself all those questions and I said, no, I cannot find a way to love it. I just cannot. So I tried that thought experiment. I said, Nope, can't love it.
Megan DiPiero: 39:00 So then I say to myself, okay, shove it. Can I shove this task off of my plate onto someone else's plate? And maybe I don't want to do it, but who else could do it? Could I get green apron to be delivered to my door so I don't have to do meal planning and prepping and grocery shopping? And then at least it's made easier. But someone else is handling the bulk of it. And what I actually eventually did decide to do was that I decided to hire a chef and you might think that's exorbitant, but it worked really well. I didn't need to hire the world's best chef. I ended up hiring another stay at home mom and she was just happen to be good at following instructions and taking my lead on things. And I said, these are the cookbooks we use. Go to town, here's a credit card, buy the groceries. And she did every single bit of cooking for me and that was a really great way for me to shove it off of my plate and it how much freedom I experienced from that was amazing. Like I found out that between shopping, meal planning, prepping, cooking, cleaning, all that stuff, I found out that I was spending 20 hours a week.
Raymond: 40:03 Oh my God, I believe it. I believe it was with a family. With kids. Yeah.
Megan DiPiero: 40:07 Yeah. This is why I hate cooking. So that, so that's how I decided to shove it and then the other pieces rise above it. So the other thing is, you know, if you can't love it or shove it, can you just decide to let go of that thing? Is that really necessary? Like maybe it's just mom guilt that's nagging at you. That's saying you have to feed your kids healthy. Well, you know, if your family is perfectly fine with like going out to Applebee's every night of the week and having a salad bar or what have you, or you know, or even if it's going out to McDonald's, whatever your thing is, can you just let go of the pressure that's telling you you have to do that thing. And so that would be the rise above it piece to just simply say, guess what, this task, it's not even needed at all. I'm moving beyond the stress of it next. And any of those pieces can be applied to business, to life. You know, to any task in your world that you just dread.
Raymond: 40:57 I love it. Oh man. I felt like I've said that a million times during this interview. I love it. But I think just everything that you're saying really resonates with me and I know that it's really gonna resonate with the with the listeners as well. It sounds like you've, you've got just about everything figured out, right? It sounds like you, you've mastered everything that you need to to from decision making to client prices and everything. But I want to know have you ever had a failure that was at least a failure that you made at the time you thought was an Uber was a failure, but it actually sets you up better for success later on?
Megan DiPiero: 41:32 Oh God. Just like failures. That's so interesting. Cause I'm actually writing a program right now in a big chunk of that is all about failure because if you look at any business hero, there is no entrepreneur success story that I know of where they didn't have failure. And one of my favorite quotes is that the master has failed more times than the beginner has a even tried. And when I first started I put that up on my desk cause I was like, okay, it's all right to fail. It's okay to fail. You know, I'm not even feeling as much as the master has. It's fine. So, so let's see. So the tricky part is I could a million stories pop into my mind about failure, but I'm trying to think about when has failure led to something better. I don't know. I think part of like the, the leading to something better is just the fact that surviving a failure and learning from it is so, so helpful.
Megan DiPiero: 42:22 So you know, like even just that sometimes I have to remind myself to not be as much as a go getter. Like one time I completely stuck my foot in my mouth when I was trying to compliment someone, I said the complete wrong thing and their face was red and my face was red and it was humiliating, but I didn't die. So I was just like, okay, I didn't die. So next time Megan, slow down, choose your words wisely and you know, that was really helpful. So I think I just constantly, anytime I have a failure and this is one of my favorite quotes and rise to the top, you'll see this, Oh my God. Every week I'll say to people, I never lose. Either I win or I learn. And I love that quote because I truly believe I don't ever lose. I'm always going to learn something from it. And if I don't lose it all, well then I won. So that's kind of my driving principle and it makes it okay for me to make as many mistakes as I need to.
Raymond: 43:11 I love that. I have one last question for you. You've been very gracious with your time. We've actually gone over your allotted time. Do you have time for this? One last question. Okay. I want to know what you're the best investment that you have ever made in yourself, either in money, time, or energy. What has it been?
Megan DiPiero: 43:33 Hm. Okay. Can I say to you half the time I'm here, I think one will be more relevant to your audience. And one I think I'll start with the one that they're going to say whatever, Megan. But here's the whatever Megan one I a this past year I hired a driver and I think that that's so crazy. Like who the heck hires a driver? I, you know, my whole family jokes that I'm like the Lincoln lawyer and I just get my, but the thing is, it's been amazing for me. It's been so productive. I now only work three days a week in portrait photography and I bring in $400,000 a year with three days a week. And I was driving and my driver is a full time employee and we chit chat in the car sometimes. And I said to her, I was like, I don't understand how last year I was working five days and this year I'm working three days and I'm accomplishing the exact same if not more.
Megan DiPiero: 44:24 And what I found out was, you know how when you're on an airplane, well it used to be this way, now there's wifi on every flight. But it used to be you were on an airplane, you could get so much done because you just had that uninterrupted time to yourself and nothing but you and a book or you and your laptop and you could just get stuff done, no interruptions, nothing. And that's what's like for me in the car. So that has been just an absolutely invaluable resource and I will always want to drive her. Now. I'm so hooked. I don't even know how to pump gas anymore. It's but, but I know that that kind of like, you know, smacks of diva a little bit too much. So let me say one that's more, you know, reasonable for folks. The best investment that I made starting off was we joked that it was the $5,000 debacle.
Megan DiPiero: 45:07 I had this inclination, this inkling rather that if I could attend one of those major photography conventions, I could get so much education and I can just jam pack my week of learning and answer every question I have. And the cool thing is if you've not been to one of these big national conventions, which my favorite one right now is imaging. And I'm actually speaking at that coming up in 2019, which is not the sole reason I love it, but I do love it. And and so imaging what, when you first go, it's like you go and your mind is just blown. It's like 90% of the stuff you hear is brand new information. It's so awesome. So I went with a question and that's what I would recommend to people that they do is go with the question. My question was, how do I price?
Megan DiPiero: 45:52 And that is the very reason why I was able to go between the space of that one conference from $250 to $2,500 and the reason why it was the best investment, but why we called it the $5,000 debacle is because at the time, again, still starting new young kids at home. I had never been away from my kids for more than a day and a thought of like being away from them for an entire week. I was just like, that ain't happening. So we took our entire family of four to this big conference in another state with all the plane tickets and all the hotels and food and everything like that. And we knew it was gonna cost a pretty penny. So we joked to ourselves, you know, Hey, if this fails, let's just call it the $5,000 debacle, we'll just be like, Oh, well we wasted our money. And not that we really had money to burn, but it just made us feel better to be able to let ourselves off the hook. And that's what I'm talking about, about letting yourself fail and making room for risk. And so it was so helpful to me to just say, you know what, if this fails, it's not the end of the world, but it turns out, of course it didn't fail. It turned out to be the catalyst for my entire business and it was just so information rich that, you know, that was the absolute start of my brand. So of course I'm grateful for it, that Schreiber.
Raymond: 47:09 So definitely for those listening continued education to learn as much as possible, it's okay to pay to, to learn.
Megan DiPiero: 47:17 Yes.
Raymond: 47:18 So Megan, again I really want to thank you for, for coming on the podcast and seriously sharing everything that you did. You've been an open book today and I so appreciate all of that. For the listeners
Raymond: 47:30 Listening right now. I'm sorry, I have to sneeze. Hello.
Megan DiPiero: 47:35 What is going on in your space?
Raymond: 47:39 Our son just started kindergarten like a few weeks ago. So now he's bringing everything home and yeah, so I apologize. Okay. So for those listening can you let them know, I'm sorry for the listeners listening who want to know more about you or get more information from you, can you share where they can find you online?
Megan DiPiero: 48:00 Sure. Well anyone can go to my website, which is Megan dipiero.com and that's a great place. If you just want to see what I'm up to with my image making and how I run my business, you can take a snapshot there and see what that dolls is all about. And then for the folks that are into professional photography if you're just starting or if you already have a professional business, we do have of course rise to the top, which is an awesome place. We talk business all the time. I don't know that I'm someone who just wants to see the art side of things. I don't know that they would love it. It is just all business all the time. But if you are about business, Oh my God, you will love that group. So it's rise to the top with Megan DiPiero and of course we have within that group archives of years of years of free education. Once a month I try to post a pretty meaty lesson and share what I know with folks.
Raymond: 48:52 Perfect. Megan, again, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and I really look forward to keeping up with you and continuing my education with you as well. So again, Megan, thank you so much.
Megan DiPiero: 49:02 All right, thank you.
Raymond: 49:04 What did I tell you about that business mind of hers? I want to know what was your biggest takeaway? For me it was just not to care what other photographers think of you. I mean, I struggled with this myself. Sometimes it's hard to, to put out some of your work because you know I guess we just all have doubts sometimes and it was just great to hear that that Megan is, is just saying forget that she's doing what is right for her and it's working out. She, you know, if you do what's right for you, you just can't go wrong. So Megan, if you're listening, thank you so much for this entire interview. You are truly an open book and a, I appreciate everything that you shared with the listeners. Listeners, I would love to hear what your biggest takeaway was, so feel free to share whatever it was in the beginning.
Raymond: 49:50 Photography podcast, Facebook group. Okay. That is it for this week. Remember, if you want to become one of the patrons of the podcast to sign up quick before the first 25 slots are filled and the monthly price doubles the $10, which is still, I think going to be a phenomenal deal with what I have planned coming soon. So again, if you're interested, head over to patrion.com forward slash beginner photography podcast to sign up. Okay, that is it. Until next week, I want you all to get out there, keep shooting, stay safe, most of all, of course, and that's it.
Outro: 50:28 I love you all. If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.