BPP 150: Michael Sasser - Being a Male Boudoir Photographer

Todays guest is Michael Sasser. Southern Californias premier boudoir photographer. As you might have guessed he is also a male. Today I'm excited to talk about how he built an incredibly strong boudoir brand while facing the challenged of being a male in a predominantly female industry!

Become A Premium Member is access to more in-depth questions that help move you forward!

In This Episode You'll Learn:

  • When Michael got started in photography

  • Some challenges Michael faced learning photography

  • Why Michael got into boudoir

  • What is the goal of a successful boudoir shoot

  • The challenges Michael faces being a male photographer shooting boudoir

  • Some of the terminology Michael

  • How to make images that are tasteful and dont get weird and trashy

  • 2-3 actionable posing tips new photographers can create

  • How to capture women of all sizes beautifully and how to make them comfortable

Premium Members Also Learn:

  • Where to shoot and weather or not you need a studio space

  • How Michael booked his first boudoir shoot and how it went

  • What most clients buy from Michael


Did you enjoy this episode? Check out more recent interviews with other great guests!

Full Interview Transcription

Disclaimer: The transcript was transcribed electronically and may contain errors that do not reflect accurately what the speaker said. Because of this, please do not quote this automated transcript.

Raymond: 00:00:00 Hey Raymond here from the beginning of photography podcast. And today we're talking about booed wire photography from a male photographer. All right, let's get into it.

intro: 00:00:10 Welcome to the beginner photography podcast with Raymond Hatfield, the podcast dedicated to helping you grow your photography skills. Raymond interviews the world's top photographers in their field to ask questions that will get you taking better photos today. Now, with you as always, husband, father, Ho brewer, La Dodger Fan, and Indianapolis wedding photographer Raymond Hatfield.

Raymond: 00:00:39 Back to today's episode of the beginner photography podcast. I am Raymond Hatfield is always your host of the beginner photography. Hi, I just said that. And a wedding photographer here in Indianapolis today is an episode that has been requested by quite a few of the members of the beginner photography podcast Facebook group. It's one of those that a I just haven't done before, and that is with a boudoir photographer. Now before we get into this interview if you don't know what booed wire is, it is intimate portraiture typically with a woman right in front of a camera. So when you hear us talking today kind of imagine that if you haven't seen it before. So I hope that that gives you kind of an idea. Typically it's like it's done either a as a gift or it is a very empowering to be in front of a camera in a very vulnerable state.

Raymond: 00:01:32 So it's, it's been taking off over the past few years and today, like I said, I'm super excited to be talking with not only a male photographer, which is predominantly a female dominated industry I guess or, or is genre. But one who is, who is just done incredible things in, in southern California, in Los Angeles of all places. He has not only made a name for himself, but he has been known as one of the best. So today's episode is, is really great. But first I want to share a little something about this week, this week today if you're listening to daily, this comes out Monday June 3rd, 2019. I'm super excited because I have been working so hard on this new course that is coming out auto to amazing and that is actually being soft launched tomorrow. So the majority of the course is done.

Raymond: 00:02:26 It is finished to this point, right? So now I'm going to invite 50 students to join the Beta launch so that I can get their feedback, make sure that the course is everything that it needs to be, that you learn everything that needs to be learned. Because I want this to be the fastest way to learn how to shoot in manual guaranteed. That's what I want. That is the goal for this course. And I don't just mean I guarantee it. I mean I'm going to guarantee it and that if you don't learn how to shoot manual in 30 after taking the course, then

I'm going to refund you not only all of your money, but 150% of the purchase price. That is how confident I am in this course. So like I said though, the, the Beta launch is gonna open up tomorrow to just 50 students and that is only going to be available to members of the beginning photography podcast, Facebook group.

Raymond: 00:03:20 So there you go. There is a reason, if any, if you haven't already joined the Facebook group too to join is that I do stuff like this for members of the group because well they obviously take their photography seriously. So I will have more information for you, the listeners if you're not already a part of the group in the coming weeks. When I have the official public launch and like I said, you will be the first to know about it. You're on the podcast. So that's it. Okay. Let's go ahead and get on into today's interview. Right now it is with Michael Sasser. Like I said, one of the top Boudoir photographers and he's made a name for himself in La of all places. One of the places where, you know, photographers go to, to be successful. And he has done it. So I had a great talk with Michael Today.

Raymond: 00:04:10 He shared, he's just an open book. He is excited to share about everything and if you get a chance, we talk about it a little bit in the interview, but he has a very, very informative youtube channel with lots of tips specifically for, for Boudoir photographers obviously. And just to hear that male perspective is really, really, really interesting stuff and valuable if you are a male who wants to get into boudoir. And as always, I save a portion of the episode geared specifically towards asking questions about business a and just making money with your photography. And I saved that portion of the podcast episode for premium members of the podcast. So in today's episode, the premium members are going to learn how to interact with a client for the first time in a very vulnerable position. Obviously having a shooting space, whether you can do a shoot in your house or whether or not you need to rent a studio. And some of the perks and downsides of, of owning a studio as well as what sorts of luxury products boudoir or for boudoir clients are purchasing and how you need to be selling those. So if you want to learn all of that becoming premium member by signing up at the beginnerphotographypodcast.com and clicking the premium membership button at the top right of the page. Okay. let's just go ahead and get on into today's interview with Michael Sasser,

Raymond: 00:05:36 Today's guest is Michael Sasser, southern California's premier boudoir photographer. And as you might have guessed by his name, he's also a male. And today I'm excited to talk about how he built an incredibly strong Boudoir brand all facing the challenges of being a male in a predominantly female dominated industry. Would you say that's right?

Michael Sasser: 00:05:57 Uh, yeah, I would say, I mean I don't have the numbers, but if I were to guess, you know, looking at the Facebook groups [inaudible] when I'm clicking for Boire for inspiration in new cities and such, I would say it's about a 90 10 split, something like that for female to male. Yeah,

Raymond: 00:06:09 I was going to think like 98 too. So that's even better. Who knows? Yeah. We got to get a, the Department of Labor Statistics on this, right? Not exactly what that is. So Michael I mentioned that you built quite a big brand of boudoir photography and then southern California, that's no easy feat with a lot of photographers down there. So why don't you tell me how you got your start in photography and the first,

Michael Sasser: 00:06:31 So my start in photography happened in college actually my very first thing that I ever did, I went to Australia to study abroad and I like love taking pictures of sunsets and I want to take better pictures of sunsets and flowers. So I just sort of self- taught, learn, learn my camera and that's, that's how the interest got started. Then when I got back in town back to the states I hopped on craigslist looking for a photography job, you know,

is this possible as a career? I don't know. Let me see what's on craigslist. And a popped up was a youth sports photography job where they would go out and take pictures of their these kids and then you would sell the pictures back to their parents. And that was, that was it. I did customer service for them. They let me take a couple pictures.

Michael Sasser: 00:07:19 I did good enough that they let me start shooting for them. You know, so that, that was my very first photography job and that was, I was, I was like 21. That was like 12 years ago. So since then, I've tried everything under the sun, high school, senior portraits, weddings, headshots you know, pretty much everything except like children and babies. That's pretty much the only thing that I haven't shot. And yeah, I picked up boudoir about six years ago. Just kind of a, was not part of the plan. As I think most people find Boudoir never really part of their plan. They know somebody who shot at or they decided to have the experienced themselves or they or a friend ask them to shoot it and realize that they loved it. And then all of a sudden it's this thing that they really want to make the forefront of their business or identity or anything like that. So started about six years ago, but but about three and a half years ago, I stopped shooting everything. I stopped shooting weddings, head shots high school, senior portraits. I mean, you name it. And I exclusively have been shooting boudoir for the last three and a half years.

Raymond: 00:08:25 Wow. Okay. So there's a lot to unpack there and I definitely want to get into all of that. But let's, let's go back to the beginning. I want to know a little bit more about your experience in Australia with the camera. What was it? Was it just that you liked sunsets and flowers that you decided to go out and buy a camera? Did you already have one at that?

Michael Sasser: 00:08:43 So I didn't, I took like a high school photography class, but I, okay. It wasn't really, it didn't stick with me. It wasn't like, wow, this is amazing and this is something that I want to do and this is I just took a semester of it cause it was easy and I didn't too much of it. And then when I was going to Australia, I actually wasn't going to take a camera. And I remember, I remember my dad asked me, this is before camera phones, you know, it's not like you just had one in your pocket all the time. And he was like, what camera are you taking? I was like, I'm no camera. You know, he's like, he can't go to Australia without a camera. And so we went into like wolf camera or something and bought me a Panasonic fz six, I think it was called maybe fc seven, which is a point and shoot that has a, that has a big telephoto zoom.

Michael Sasser: 00:09:24 So it's any, you know, it's the same version as they have now, but forever goes like six megapixels, 12 x zoom suite. And I pretty much, it stayed in the bag for the first two months, but I started to, yeah, struggle was just really pretty when we would travel places. I would take pictures of, I didn't really understand why people took pictures of people. It didn't make that much sense to me. Like, oh, I know this person. Why do I need a picture of that person? I can just see them whenever it like didn't make sense to me. What I wanted is, wow, I'm going to go to this place. I may never go there again. Let me take a picture of that. And so as I started taking them, I was like, this is good, but I want it to be better. Like how can this be more interesting?

Michael Sasser: 00:10:04 How can it, how can I show what I see? Cause I, cause I wasn't really, I would look at a sunset, I'd be like, this is gorgeous. I take the picture and go, that's not at all what I saw. Yeah. Like what's the disconnect? And so that's, that's really what I wanted to, I want him to like learn that ability. And so we would take trains from from like we would go up to Frasier island from Brisbane. And so in Brisbane we'd go to the train station. I had grabbed popular photography magazine, outdoor Photography magazine, and I would read it cover to cover on the way there, try a few of the things. We'd finished the trip, we'd go

to the train station on the way back and pick up another magazine and I'd, I'd read that. So that's really how I, how I got my first like education based around it.

Michael Sasser: 00:10:53 Down. Did this camera have any sort of manual controls or we, you still pretty much just, it had point shoot that had manual controls. It was like a, the equivalent of 35 millimeters wide, so it wasn't like a wide angle lens. So it was like the equivalent of 35 millimeters wide to like 200 millimeters long. Terrible ISO. I mean if you think about 13 years ago and a one inch sensor, I mean, it was just the w it was just the worst. But I remember one of my big light bulb moments is ridiculous, but there were like chickens and roosters running around wherever we were. And I took a picture of one and it was like blurry and I was like, how do I, how do I stop them in motion? I know I read something about this. What are my settings I'm supposed to do?

Michael Sasser: 00:11:39 And I remember, I think I have to increase the shutter speed, which I did. I was already at the most wide open aperture I had to you know, shorten up the shutter speed, which I did. And that made them stop, but then I couldn't see them because it was too dark. So I was like, what is it? What, how else can I make this brighter? I was like, that's the ISO. And I put the ISO up a little bit and I got a picture of a chicken running and it was, it was, you know, sharp and in focus and I was like, I'm a photographer. And that was a big Aha moment for me. That sort of was like, I can learn this, you know, like this is within my I'm going to be able to create what I want.

Raymond: 00:12:20 Wow. Yeah, that's totally an Aha moment and it makes sense, you know, if when you, when you see that feedback on the back of a camera and you're like, what? Like what is this? What? But then when you actually figure that out, that's got to stick and you gotta be pretty proud of yourself. So that's, that's awesome.

Michael Sasser: 00:12:33 It was awesome. I did, I did stuff like that all the time. I mean, I remember being up late and having that camera and reading about apertures and like just being in my room, taking pictures of my mouse. I would just like take a picture of my mouse at 2.8 take a picture of my mouse at f eight and just kind of go back and forth between those and just see the difference. My bed posts just like midnight, just shooting things and trying a bunch of different settings and the immediate feedback I think is what allowed me to learn as quickly as I did.

Raymond: 00:13:03 That's awesome. That is so cool. So, okay, you got back to the states and then you're like, you know what, I'm going to try this as a thing. You went on craigslist, started looking for jobs, found your job. So at what point, I want to know, did did that studio teach you anything extra that that you didn't know before or was it all basically businessy and sales?

Michael Sasser: 00:13:22 So yeah, so I got back to town. I got my first digital SLR was Thanksgiving and they were having a big sale. So I got, I got one of those. And I think I was just, I think I was just shooting around with it and I sent some pictures to my high school photography teacher and she was like, these are, you know, these are pretty good. Have you ever thought about a career in photography? And I said, ah, come on, give me a break. You know, when I thought of professional photographers, I thought of these people that I had seen online that were just blew my mind. Pictures that I could never imagine taking. And I thought that's the level that you needed to make money in photography. So like interested, pretty good, knows your camera expert known across the world. This is the level that you needed to be to make money with photography.

Michael Sasser: 00:14:13 So I just thought it was kind of wasn't good enough. Expert wasn't good enough. You had to be mad at the alone, you know? And so I think that yeah, so

going through, I didn't really think about it before she mentioned it. So that's when I hopped on craigslist and I was like, what? What can I learn? I was like, sports, that sounds cool. I was like shooting for the school newspaper you know, at college and like shooting some of the sports stuff there. And so when I went there, they taught me I wouldn't say I learned like specifically photography things. I think whatever foundation I had was enough to like get the exposure right, that sort of thing. But I learned a lot on the business side of things, I learned that experience even even though you're taking pictures of kids that are just out on the field and you may never interact with them when they parents come up to look at the pictures, the way that you interact with them really matters.

Michael Sasser: 00:15:13 I'll never forget my boss, Chris, we get the same questions over and over again as any business person does and he would get a question like how many pictures do you guys take during the game? And I'll never forget that. When I first started working there, I heard the answer for the first time and it was, oh, okay, that's okay, now I now I know, but after a hundred times I saw him get asked. Every time he answered it, he answered it like it was the first time he ever heard that question. And that just blew my mind because to us it was like, it's very repetitive. It was almost like annoying. Like, why are you asking this question again? Like, yeah, obviously everybody knows, but the way that he treated them came at it from like a place, I don't want to say empathy, but it's like their question mattered as much as the person who asked the same question four years prior. And so things like that I picked up on as far as you know, how to, how to make the the customer feel important and like guiding them through things and, and things like that. I definitely learned a lot.

Raymond: 00:16:25 I think that's important, you know, as, as, as you get into photography after a while, it really becomes clear that, and I've said this a million times on the podcast, that the photography is, is a service. It's not a product, you know, and nobody wants a, you know, garbage service. Everybody wants great service, even if the product is just all right, you know? And I think that that is potentially, you know, even a bigger lesson than than learning how to be technically perfect with every single one of your photos. So that's a great lesson. Now, I want to know though, when you were talking about making your transition into boudoir photography, you said that a lot of people get into boudoir photography because you know, maybe they've had that experience for themselves or they seen somebody else who did it. Did you have the experience for yourself? Is that how you got into it?

Michael Sasser: 00:17:13 So I did have the experience for myself, but that was a, that was a research after I was already shooting. I was like, what am I, what is it like to be half naked in front of a stranger in a room you've never been in and like be that vulnerable? Like what are my clients really going through? So I did that after I shot boudoir for about a year and a half.

Raymond: 00:17:31 So what got you interested? Like the very first time?

Michael Sasser: 00:17:33 So so I had done two boudoir paid boudoir shoots prior and at some point for like next to no money. I didn't know how to price it. I just, friends reached out to me. They're like, I know you do photography. Would you do something? This for me, I want to give it as a gift or I want to try something like this. But my friend Lynn Clark, who's a boudoir photographer in Denver she said that her friend was putting on a boudoir workshop in Denver, like a practice one before they were going on the road, Patriot Herman and they needed attendees to like give feedback, you know, before they took it on the road. She asked me if I would, if I would come along and be a part of that. They wanted to have a guy there to see like if that dynamic would change or be weird or anything like that.

Michael Sasser: 00:18:22 So I went and it was two days and I learned that the business process of it was the, almost the exact same as what I was doing for high school, senior

portraits minus the subject matter. So she was like first part of the experience you do a pre- consultation. I was like, I do pre consultations. Then you do a photo shoot. Okay. I do a photo shoot. I don't know how to shoot this stuff, but I, you know, I know my camera and then you sell an album. I was like, I sell albums. So I decided that I was going to, you know, give this thing a tribe. I put together a website. I just set up six photo shoots in seven days. I was like, I need a portfolio. I hopped on model mayhem when model mayhem was the thing I posted on Facebook.

Michael Sasser: 00:19:08 I asked some friends and I put together some, you know, a couple of photo shoots, put that website up and then, and then just decided it was something I was going to make a little extra money in the winter time in Denver. It snows, not a whole lot of winter weddings, high school, senior season is in the summer. So the winter time I was pretty much, didn't, didn't have a whole lot to do. So I was like, this'll be great. I'll be able to make an extra five, 600 bucks a session and just do this in the winter time. And and so that's Kinda how I got my, got my start into, into Boudoir. Okay.

Raymond: 00:19:44 So just so that I'm clear, were you living in Denver at the time?

Michael Sasser: 00:19:47 I was living in Denver. I had built my business there. I was, I lived in Denver for about five or six years for about six years at that point.

Michael Sasser: 00:19:54 And I was, I was full time wedding photographer full time wedding video. I shot wedding video as well as doing about 10 high school senior portraits in the summertime. A the occasional a headshot, possibly the offshoot family family portrait, but not really. So you were doing where I was, you were definitely doing work. I was definitely doing work. So the transition was actually coming from knowing a bunch of people in the wedding industry made it easier for me to start getting Boudoir clients. Cause I had just let everybody know, hey guys, I shoot boudoir. Now what ended up happening was a bunch of the photographers were like, maybe if we can get Michael to shoot more booed wire, he'll shoot less weddings. It sounded pretty excited about that. Yeah. so that was great. I shot a couple of the wedding planners there. So that they could have the maybe maybe send me some business that way. That's a good their clients. You know, I just did a couple of things to just let people know.

Raymond: 00:20:56 Okay. So I want to go back now to the to the in person workshop that you did. You said that they wanted to bring a male along to see if that really changed the dynamic. Obviously being a male as we talked about in a predominantly female industry I would imagine that you do face some challenges that maybe female photographers don't. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Michael Sasser: 00:21:17 Yes. the first thing I want to say about that is that boudoir is a, like a super vulnerable experience for anyone. Whether you're photographers, male or female. Like there are barriers that women have to overcome to be comfortable to do this experience. There are going to be you know, they may have things about their body that they don't love, that are going to be exposed. They're going to have, these pictures are going to be immortalized forever. You know, a lot of women you know, they're very hard on themselves and they don't feel like they're photogenic. And it is a stranger and these are pictures and what happens to the pictures and like a million different things. So the first thing to note is if you're, if you're a male watching this know that females also have a battle to fight, to gain comfort with a client.

Michael Sasser: 00:22:06 And then if you're a female watching this also know that just because you're a female doesn't mean you don't have to build trust with a client before they come in. So that's the first thing I'll say. The second thing is yes, I think that males have a there

are certain things about being a male photographer that you have more to overcome. And I think a lot of that is, is trust. I think you have to build more trust that you are a professional, that you're doing this for the right reasons, that you believe in. You know, what is your why, you know, for shooting boudoir for things like you know, I mean essentially those sort of things, those sorts of things. And it's not just, you know, there's a lot of it is because just the people's minds run wild.

Michael Sasser: 00:22:58 Like, what is this space like? Is it dark? Is it, you know, am I going to feel comfortable? What kind of person is he? Is he like a social, like women, even if they feel like it might be an awkward date, they like won't go on the date. So if they feel like it's going to be an awkward experience, that may deter them from going. So you have a lot more trust trust to build. But also there's just a lot of guys out there that are doing it for the wrong reasons. They'll pick up a camera and they'll just, you know, messaged a bunch of girls on Instagram to get them, you know, naked so they can get some pictures of them. And that exists. And so you have to you have to show strongly that you're not, you're not that. And there's, there's a ton of ways to do that. But yeah,

Raymond: 00:23:44 You mentioned earlier sharing your why, why you're doing it. Can you tell us your why? Why do you do boudoir photography?

Michael Sasser: 00:23:50 Yeah. I mean there's a, there's a bunch of you guys I want a little bit of the full explanation or to see, you know, how that is shown on my website. You guys can go check that out if you just Google my name Michael Sasser. But in a, in a simple way to say it. So first of all, your why will change I book my why has changed from when I first started. It was like, honestly, to make a little extra money and then it was to you know, have a, an amazing pictures for their significant other like a cool gift that you can't buy in stores. And then it became a little bit more about the woman hearing stories over and over again about just, you know, women feeling less than, and you know, undeserving of feeling beautiful. And but I've had my own experiences where, you know, somebody that I've been dating, I'll say, you know, Oh, you look really beautiful today.

Michael Sasser: 00:24:46 They'll kind of roll their eyes and say, you have to say that you're my boyfriend. And I'm like, come on. Like the reason, the reason, like I care about you so much and I want you to be happy and I feel these things about you and I'm not lying just to make you feel good. Obviously I'm dating you. I like, I feel these things and I want you to feel them too, but it can get brushed off. So I found that with the camera taking a, taking a good picture, giving them a good experience, showing them that picture on the back of the camera, they can no longer argue with anybody because they're not, it's not somebody saying like, Oh, you look nice. And they're like, I saw myself in the mirror this morning. I know what I live like, you know, really what it is is they, they've got a fight now with this picture that shows that they are beautiful. And at that point they have to make the decision, am have I been lying to myself this whole time? Am I beautiful? Is, you know, is what I've been saying to myself? Is that, is that wrong? Do I deserve to, you know, like the way that I look, all these things that start to challenge their perspective. So a, I love, we do our photography for that reason that it gives the ability to kind of change perspective. So that's a you know, that's probably, that's probably the core of it.

Raymond: 00:26:01 That's a solid reason I would, I mean, just knowing my wife, you know, there's a lot of things I see her differently than she sees herself. Like I know that we both kind of struggled with our weight like our entire lives. And when we first got together we worked on that and we worked really hard. We lost like more than a hundred pounds together and then, but I still now understand what she sees. Yeah. It's all in your head where like you still see yourself at your largest, you still see yourself at your worst, no matter what anybody else

sees or what you know, it shows. So I would, I would imagine that having that definitive experience, like, no, look, you are beautiful would be a really powerful moment for anybody in

Michael Sasser: 00:26:43 Front of the camera. And it's, yeah. For things like that for people who come in and I lost a bunch of weight, but I can't see myself as that new person for people who feel like they had kids and like, okay, I'm a mom now and I don't you know, I guess that part of my life feels like it's gone. For women who just anything for like who are in Instagram a bunch and they see a whole bunch of beautiful women in bikinis run around the world that are just seemed to have be perfect all the time and they, you know, see themselves in the morning with their hair all messed up and they're just like kinda groggy and that's what they're comparing it to. So a million things, but I definitely hear that. I hear I just had a client recently who said, I'm, I love the job that I have.

Michael Sasser: 00:27:27 I'm generally very happy. My significant other says that I'm the most beautiful woman in the world, and then I see a picture of myself and I just hate it. I just hate it. And so I want to be able to see what he keeps telling me and I've heard that good work and can have an effect on that. So so that's like a conversation that I had two days ago with a potential client. And that is, you know, I think that's a lot of what people are looking for. Sometimes people don't know what they're looking for before they come in, but yeah, knowing that, I mean, some women are just, they're like, I just, I'm confident in the way that I look and I just want sexy pictures and that's okay. I've got a handful of those clients every year. But you know, I would say even if that's the case and if you want to shoot, you know, boudoir specifically is this like everyday woman side of things.

Michael Sasser: 00:28:19 Like if you want to shoot come or if you want to shoot for swimsuit brands and you just want to shoot 21 year old models, like that's great too. Like go live it up. That's a super fun job I'm sure. But just to photograph specifically women who've never been in front of the camera, I think it can be helpful for them to, to hear where you're coming from so that when they step, when they do send you that email and they say, okay, I read a little bit about your business and it's not what I was expecting. Like this is, this sounds actually exactly what I'm looking for. And the way you said it resonated with me. Yeah. That is so powerful to start building trust even before you guys get on the phone. Any of that stuff. Yeah, I can totally see how that would be a different why as to being a, to a photographer.

Michael Sasser: 00:29:06 Yeah. You want to create beautiful images and beautiful places and show off you know, brand and the lifestyle of what, what your life could be like if you, you know, wore this product or any of those sort of live in where you, you don't care about any of that stuff. I don't care about the brand. I enjoy it. Yeah. I enjoy like beautiful places, but the brand, I mean, I'm not a good more social photographer. I've tried to like photograph for a lingerie company and then like send those pictures back to the, to the store that like sells a lingerie as kind of a partnership. But I'm just not good at showing off the product. Like I even when women come in and they say, we you know, what do I wear? I'm like, you should like, here's your outfit guide to be flattering, but know that the outfit doesn't really matter as much. Like we're focusing more on you, but go back and look at the pictures and see that the outfit that they're wearing doesn't really matter. And they'll go back and be like, oh, okay. You know that in my head that was the most important part. But actually I see that it doesn't, doesn't matter.

Raymond: 00:30:06 Yeah, that's a good difference. That's a good difference. Okay, well I want you to take me back now. We keep doing this thing where we're like, when you talk about like the past and then the now and then the future. I keep going back, I feel bad, but I want to go back to your first client that you had. You said that it was a friend of yours, they just reach out because they knew that you had a camera. Can you tell me about kind of your mindset for that first shoot and like were you nervous? How did it

Raymond: 00:30:32 Turn out? Hey Raymond here, and if you're listening to this, it means that you are listening to the free version of today's podcast, which means that you are missing out big time. You know, if you become a premium member, not only do you unlock the full interview with today's guests where they share so much more valuable information on how to become a successful photographer, but you also get access to the entire back catalog of past interviews with some of the world's most renowned and experienced photographers who open up and share how they got to where they are and what they would do if they had to start all over again today. Now, if you want to find out, become a premium member by heading over to patreon.com/beginnerphotographypodcast or just head on over to beginner photography, podcast.com and click the link on our homepage. That's it. I hope to see you there. That was a [inaudible]

Raymond: 00:31:25 A ton of really actionable business tips and steps and ideas there. I thank you for sharing those. And again it's one of those things to where kind of why I got into doing this podcast, right? Like I want to talk to photographers who were better than me. And now that I'm asking like more kind of businessy related questions, it is so great to hear other photographers takes, especially on on how many products you should be offering right there. That was, that was key. So again, thank you. So I want to go now in, cause we haven't really talked too much about shooting. Yeah. Really talked too much about the shooting. That is where a lot of people have, I would say like specifically in the group when I asked people if they had any boudoir questions, one of them that came up was about confidence, right? From another male. His name is Shawn. He is shooting a wedding and the bride wants a boudoir session who, which he's never shot before. And he asked, he said how do you make her comfortable and how do you make images that are tasteful and don't cross the line into too much?

Michael Sasser: 00:32:36 That's a really good question. And I think that's one of the things that stops people from shooting booed wires. They're afraid. Like, what's the line between like boudoir car and something that's inappropriate. And and so I had a client during one of the album reveals, she's opening up her album and, and when she finishes she's like, I don't get it. How are they so tasteful? But like I'm naked. She's just like, I, I really am just naked. Like I don't, like it doesn't make sense to a lot of people that the two things can take place at the same time. Sure. So I would say the first thing is, is that your client, your bride has asked you to do these boudoir pictures. So how do you get them comfortable? She's already at some level comfortable because she's asked you, you know, a lot of people think, okay, this person hired me and now I don't know how to make them comfortable.

Michael Sasser: 00:33:29 They just there, you know, like there's already some level of trust built that they trust you to take these pictures so you don't feel like you have to over over comfortable them. That's a great point. Yeah. So that's the first thing is to know that they already trust you. So if somebody asked you your bride, that's awesome. The next thing I would say is that you've got a couple of different perspectives that you can shoot from. And I think this is a, you can shoot for the viewership of many, like what would a lot of people want to see in this woman that's like the popular, that's the commercial, that's the, that's what this photo is for. This person, this photo is for the viewership of many that will produce a certain type of picture. What shows off this woman's beauty that is that is for her.

Michael Sasser: 00:34:19 You know, when she looks back at this picture and she says, wow, look at me. Like that will be a different kind of pictures. So I think the first thing is if you can shoot it from the perspective of a, of the woman and they may, I think being a guy, I think that's one of the things that makes us unique is that we don't look at it from a perspective of a woman. We look at it from the perspective of a guy. And so that will generate a, you know, a unique kind of photo. But if you can just do it, do it a little bit with that in mind, I think that'll be

the first thing that'll keep it tasteful. The second thing is that play on suggestion. So you can both have a beautiful photo that that looks just as like, wow, that photo is beautiful and is not sexual and have it be and have them be naked.

Michael Sasser: 00:35:06 So you're going to have just like a naked picture of a woman just standing by a window that's just beautiful. Then nothing sexual about it. And then you can have a woman in lingerie or whatever or you can have a woman in a dress, you know, a full dress. It's a busy day for the sirens today, criminals out there. And Monday, I think it's the A, I think there's a bunch of ambulances. Oh, that's even worse on this. So just give that one more second. But yeah, so then you can also have a woman like in a full dress that's like really sexual, that's really inappropriate. That's covered up a whole bunch of stuff. So know that there are, there are ways to make pictures like more risky. There are ways to make pictures more tame and the amount that she's wearing doesn't always have a factor on that.

Michael Sasser: 00:35:52 Okay. Okay. So as you're shooting you know, think if you want to keep them on the really tasteful side of things, you just think beauty instead of sexual. And so if she's sitting there and her lingerie, she sitting on her bed and she's like pulling up her her stockings, if she's wearing stockings or she's playing with her guard or on her leg, there's nothing really sexual about that. So that's just a really beautiful photograph. You can take that all day long and not have anybody assume that it's going to be inappropriate. So that's the first thing. I think if you apply that to a bunch of different things saying putting on her dress while really low back and done zipped in the back can be really beautiful. Again, not really that sexual. So yeah. I would say that that's probably the first thing that I would say is, is realize there's a difference between amount of clothing, you know, from the, from completely covered, completely nude and the amount of, you know, explicitness from, you know, nothing to a lot.

Michael Sasser: 00:36:51 Okay. So you can separate those two things. But yeah, I mean as far as getting them comfortable, I would say the, my two biggest pieces of advice are, you know, they are going to be walking around in lingerie, make a lot of eye contact is the first thing. And the second thing is your energy will affect their energy. So when I get somebody who's who's really nervous, I sometimes make a few more jokes than I normally would just to break down that barrier, just to make them laugh. If they're really, really nervous, I'll put down my camera and I'll ask them something completely unrelated. There'll be in lingerie, they'll stand there and I'll say what did you do this weekend? You know, before you, before you came in. And she'll say, oh, I think I've, you know, we went out with friends and I'll get them talking about it's a time that they were comfortable.

Michael Sasser: 00:37:40 They realize we're just having a conversation and they're actually comfortable. So sometimes breaking out of that can be helpful. If they are a really giggly person and you want them to have like some more intimate looks, I'll get really quiet and I'll speak much slower and that will sort of draw them into my energy. So if you're really nervous and you're showing that nervous energy, she'll feel that nervous energy and she'll show it. So a lot of eye contact, a lot of jokes or breaks, amount of that. Like, oh my God, we're in lingerie right now. Not We. She but those are probably my two biggest pieces of pieces of advice on, on like getting comfortable. Okay. Is knowing that she's already at some level of comfort for hiring you too. A lot of eye contact. Three, you know, keep it light, keep it fun, keep it light.

Raymond: 00:38:36 That's great stuff. That's great stuff right there. Uh, so when it comes to actually, uh, taking the photos, one of my favorite videos of yours on your incredible youtube channel is,uthree,uthe three,uI believe it's the three most popular poses are the three like poses or poses. Okay. Can you walk us through,uthose and how they can be applied?

Michael Sasser: 00:38:56 Yeah. So if you guys want to see that, just do like three favorite Lincoln in the show. Yeah, for sure. Perfect. That'll give you a nice visual. But basically, you know, when I'm, when I'm taking a photo, I'm, I'm trying to think of, of what I want to show. So the first pose is it's gonna be a, it's going to be a little hard to explain on the couch. Yeah. Could we, instead of doing that, do like the three boudoir tips that like every boudoir pose should have?

Raymond: 00:39:25 Oh yeah, absolutely.

Michael Sasser: 00:39:26 That might be some guy. I've got a couple of posing videos, one, his three favorite specific boudoir poses, and another one is three, three boudoir posing tips that whatever, whatever pose you're setting up. But you should include,

Raymond: 00:39:38 I guess that makes more sense cause I can, like I said, link to that other video in the show notes I put is more visual.

Michael Sasser: 00:39:43 Perfect. So so the first one is pointing toes. So women, you know who wear heels, like they wear heels to get this effect that they look taller to tone up their calves. It's just a, it's just a flattering look. So you can create that without heels just by pointing toes. So if you're laying down, if you have them laying down, if you have them on the couch, if you have them standing up against the wall, whatever they're doing, just tell them to point their toes. I say like a dancer, point your toes like a dancer. You can show them, they'll think it's really funny. It'll break the ice. That's tip number one. Point your toes. The next is to arch your back. So it's that posture that sitting up real tall. I tell them they'll probably be a little sore tomorrow, so we'll be arching their back a bunch.

Michael Sasser: 00:40:28 And in whatever pose they're doing this again, it's, it looks more flattering. So if they're sitting down, arch your back. If they're laying down their back, arch their back, if they're standing up against a wall arch, their back, pretty much whatever arts or back in to point their toes get 'em to arch their back. The third tip is hands. We always struggle with what to do with our hands. Everybody always feels awkward and nothing kills a photo more than hands that don't look like they know what they're doing, right? So I say that hands are a little bit of an excuse to tell a story. So in your wedding photography, in your portrait photography, you might have somebody walking, you might have somebody playing with their hair, you might have her holding her, like having her flowers close. You might have the two of them giggling.

Michael Sasser: 00:41:12 You know what is happening in this photo that tells a story of the photo. So hands can help with that. So you can be pulling on clothing Bra straps. You can be you know, like being a little playful and hidden with your hands. You can be playing with your lips, you can be sliding your fingers across your skin. Any of these sort of things. We'll add to a little bit of that suggestive a little bit, that story. A lot of it should feel like what happened, what's happening in the next photo? You know? So if you're doing like this, if you're pulling on your shirt, what's happening in the next photo? It's showing a little bit more. That's a way to kind of make it suggestive while staying tasteful versus like, you know, showing everything. So those are the three biggest tips is point your toes aren't your back and then have your hands tell a little bit of a story by playing with your hair, tugging on clothing, sliding around your skin.

Michael Sasser: 00:42:01 Just like making some movement. Yeah, make some movement but purposeful movement. Sure. You know, like if not, yeah, jazz hands. Like, what a lot of people do is I'll say, put your hands on your hair and they'll go like this and like, this doesn't look like anything because people don't really do this. You say, run your hands through your hair and they'll go like this. Okay. And all of these motions, this is natural. This is actually how your hands do it. Not this same with them. If you say let's put your hand on your

collarbone, they may just go like this, but if you say slide your finger across your collarbone, they'll go like this. Okay. Wow. Very good distinction. Yeah. So that's the thing is I think a lot of people they focus on like what is the pose? It's this like, where do you want me to put my hands? And everything is so stiff and strong. And the whole goal is to snap them out of that. Like what is a post supposed to look like? And like what would you honestly be doing in this situation if you were telling on your clothes?

Raymond: 00:43:00 Right, right. This a few weeks ago, I had a shoot with a with a model and I asked her, I was like, go ahead. And I now, I don't know exactly what the phrase that I used was but it was something to the effect of I wanted that look of her running her fingers through her hair, but apparently I said it totally wrong and she just had like a ponytail and she just like grabbed it and pulled it off to the side. And I was like, yeah, no, I did that wrong. I definitely, I didn't use any of those photos. But you know, that's, that's a great tip. That's a great tip for sure. So I have another question here from Erica in the group and I'll be really mindful of your time cause I know that we,

Michael Sasser: 00:43:36 No, no, no. Hey, oh, let's whatever they need. Whatever anybody needs. Let's do it.

Raymond: 00:43:40 You got two last questions here. All right. So this question is from Erica, who's in the group. And she wants to know how you make women who are not models look fabulous. So I guess she means feel fabulous. And yeah, that's it. Next question. Next part of that was how do you make them feel comfortable, but, but we already talked about how do you make women who are not models look fabulous.

Michael Sasser: 00:44:03 So the first thing so this is, I think it was a lot of a mindset photographer thing. So the first, first thing you need to do is to remove the idea that models are the only ones who look fabulous is a really small distinction. But our idea of boudoir is not about the photographer, right boudoir is about the client and their perception of beauty is more important than our perception of beauty. So I want to come out with a video on this, talking about, I'm talking about a bunch of things. So I've written, I've written down some, some things about this, but basically your idea of what's beautiful or what's fabulous, I don't want to say is irrelevant, but it's, you know, when a woman comes in who's who's like more curvy than the average woman, she knows what she looks like and [inaudible] and her, what she's going to be basing, you know, her idea of what she looks like is based on that, not based on you know, what you've seen of women and other, you know, of model pictures that you've seen.

Michael Sasser: 00:45:07 You're not trying to make her look like this bikini model that's, you know, in the Cayman Islands on a boat. Like, you know, living it up. You're trying to make her look like the best version of her. So that's the first distinction is sort of removing this idea of what people are supposed to look like, which is really hard to do. That's really, really, really hard to do for men and women. The next thing that I think is really important is to look at a person like truly look at a person and find what you do. Find beautiful about them. Now because of our perceived, you know, versions of beauty that could be challenging. But for instance, if somebody has, you know, is like a pencil but has really long legs, like that's awesome. I'm going to take a bunch of pictures of their really long legs and when they see them, they're going, oh my God, my legs looked so long.

Michael Sasser: 00:46:05 This is so amazing. There are ways to put a little bit of curve into them by doing things like arching your back and pointing your toes in a couple of the angles, which you'll learn after you shoot a lot more. But the first thing is just look at this person. What's unique about this person? What do I what do they love about themselves? And find a way to, to really show that you can be very selective. What I love about boudoir, what I love about Guar is that it doesn't have to be the whole person all of the time. If you just want to

photograph the line of their back and get that really beautiful light and you can do it and it looks amazing. If you want to do just their lips, you can do that and it looks amazing.

Michael Sasser: 00:46:48 If you want to do a shot of just their legs, you can do that and it looks amazing. You don't have to photograph the whole of them every time. So I love that creativity that we have. So that's the first thing. Look at somebody and photograph the you know, what you see in them as, as are these beautiful things. The next thing is I try and do is when somebody has something that they say that they dislike about themselves, like I'm self conscious about my stomach. There are poses where you can have them lay out and stretch their arms up. That will fit in that out. I will try and get a picture of that because if they can leave saying, I've been hard about myself, about my stomach for a long and now they see a picture of themselves where they're like, that actually looks pretty good.

Michael Sasser: 00:47:33 You've done something really good for this person. So when you're thinking like, how do I make a woman who's not a model look like a model, that's not really the goal. The goal is to take somebody who it looks a certain way and photograph the best version of themselves. And then if you can, if you can change that, that's the first bit of mindset. And then there's a million tricks that you can use to like, you know, they're self conscious about their stomach. You can put them in poses of that hides, you know, their mid area. If they think their legs are really short, you can put them in heels. If they you know, if they've got a a double chin in a bunch of areas and they're really self conscious of that, you can shoot a little bit more from above. And so it won't seem, so there, there are like specific posing things that you can do, but I think if you just, if you change a little bit of your mindset that'll make l make this so much easier. So that's the first thing. You know, that's kind of how I would answer that question.

Raymond: 00:48:33 Yeah, no, I think that that's going to help a ton. And that brought up an interesting question from me, which is how often do you find that that, that your clients are like self deprecating on themselves as far as like, cause I wouldn't, I would imagine that, you know, if you were, I've found this as a wedding photographer, I go up and I take a photo, somebody like I'll, it'd be like a nice close up portrait and they'll say something like, hey my nose, you know, like what are you saying in that situation? Like in that moment, do you just brush it off?

Michael Sasser: 00:49:05 Well I talk about one of my insecurities. So share your experience. People might think, well you are just photographing a lot of beautiful women all the time. I just see your pictures and so you don't, you know, you can't relate. Right. a lot of times people think they're the only ones going through whatever they're going through. So I my smile, if there's a in podcast you won't be able to see this, but when I smile, I've got these really deep, we had these deep smile lines, which I really, which I really didn't like for a long time. This goes back to your why. So I'll tell them the story of our got my smile lines I really didn't like. So for a bunch of years, for two years, I didn't really smile that much in pictures, which is silly cause I'm a pretty happy guy, but I just did this a little minimal, you know, smile that didn't show my teeth because I didn't like these lines.

Michael Sasser: 00:49:54 They represent people who are old and they represent people, you know, like that's we all wrinkles and everything. And at some point I was just like, why am I not smiling? These pictures, this is the dumbest thing ever. Like I'm a happy person. I can either choose that I disliked this about myself or I can accept that this is a part of me and it makes me who I am. And that's not a bad thing. What you find about yourself, positive or negative is a choice. It's literally as easy as deciding my nose is whatever. I've got my grandmother's nose and that's awesome. I have a part of her and you know, instead of being like, oh my nose makes me feel old. Right? So I'll tell a story like that and try and get inside their head, try and get their perspective to change a little bit.

Michael Sasser: 00:50:39 So that's a, that's one thing that I'll do. Another is I thought about doing this like no negativity jar. If you say something bad about yourself, you have to put like a dollar in the jar. That's a great idea. Which was a fun a, which was a fun idea cause I want to promote positivity. You don't want to ignore, you don't want to like brush it off like your nose. Beautiful. You have nothing to worry about. Like why are you, you look gorgeous. Like, like don't be silly, you don't want to dismiss what they're saying, but you do want to say I'm, you know, whatever. I'm sure your significant other, I'm sure that's something that people comment all the time that they, that they love your notes and they'll be like, you know what they do, but I just don't like it. Well, maybe it's your perspective that is the one that is wrong.

Michael Sasser: 00:51:25 But I think, you know, again, more as just so powerful and just like, it's all perspective stuff. Like we've all seen women go around that you would assume like that woman doesn't look very in shape. How is she just like walking around in a, in a tiny dress and she's owning it and she looks so happy, too confident in who she is. When I like work out every day and I feel like, Ugh, like I can't even stand to look at myself. It's because it's this, it's because it's all in here. So I think Bois, you know, you've got the pictures that have the ability to change perspectives. So I take those opportunities to try and, and help, you know, kind of share this philosophy that the whole, the whole thing about, about life in general is like your perspective and you can walk around hating your nose, your chin or your, that you've got a better side or any of those things or you can embrace who you are and decided that you love that part of yourself and and that sort of thing. So that's kind of how I deal with people who are negative. But if

Raymond: 00:52:24 Why did you decide to not do the, the, the negativity jar?

Michael Sasser: 00:52:29 Just because it was, I dunno, I like had it in, in Colorado and then when I came out to la, I just, I didn't do it. I didn't get as much of it and I decided to speak more about like my story and everybody has a story like that, I think. Yeah,

Raymond: 00:52:44 I guess it would be hard when somebody like in lingerie or you know they probably don't carry a wallet on them.

Michael Sasser: 00:52:50 Yeah. I mean it's kind of a fun idea and I was like end at the end, I'm going to donate it to some, you know, whatever charity or I don't know, whatever it would be, but I, I think it's a good idea. But

Raymond: 00:53:02 If it can be incorporated in the right way. Okay, cool. Cool. So I know that we talked a little bit about this earlier, about the turning negatives into positives when it comes to editing for you. But kind of a followup question from Erica was what are your what's your philosophy on editing and where are your boundaries?

Michael Sasser: 00:53:23 So I'll do whatever client wants me to do. I will, I'll just try and get them not to. So the very first thing that we talk about, you know, how much do you edit? I say blemishes. You know, if you've got like blemishes or something like that, like you woke up with a Zit, like I'm going to take that out. If you've got a bruise, I say nonpermanent things. So anything non that just gets taken out, that's real easy. If you are in dire need of, you know, removing your stretch marks, you can but know that stretch marks aren't, you know, there's no research that, that, that has any connection between that. I say I photographed a 20 year old soccer player, like college athletic division one soccer players got stretch marks, like a guarantee that they don't mean that you're overweight, you know?

Michael Sasser: 00:54:06 And so again, kind of trying to push that perspective change. So that's what I tell them. I set them up to the to get them to not want as much editing. So

that's the first thing is all in the, in the pre planning. So that's the first thing. The next thing is I had a client recently who was just like really particular, can you take this out? And it looks like there's a little inconsistency here. And I had this sort of thing. Can you go in and you can get that and you know, I'll do what they want after the fact. But pretty much I do same day sales session. So I import call, edit, export, slide show, get them ready for the client in an hour.

Raymond: 00:54:48 Wow. That is awesome. And we're going to have to do a whole other podcast on that. That's

Michael Sasser: 00:54:53 We can do it. We can do it. I've got a, I've got an editing youtube video that kind of shows a little bit of that process, but a lot of it is essentially you know, like I've had clients who are 60 years old and they require more editing than somebody who's 30. There is truth in that, however you get good at the pose and you get good with the lighting. I never liquefy anymore when I first started liquified. I never liquefy it anymore.

Raymond: 00:55:19 Like selective coloring,

Michael Sasser: 00:55:21 Selective coloring. Yeah. But I don't think it's, you know, healthy to say, in order for you to look beautiful, I had to digitally alter, you know, whatever it is. So I, so I don't do that anymore. And yeah, so those are, so my philosophy on editing is that people should look like people, people should look like themselves. If a client is like, I want you to Photoshop me to death. If that's what the client really wants, I'll do it. But because that's my philosophy, I get one in 30 clients that once that,

Raymond: 00:55:56 Okay, Gotcha. So just make those expectations clear from the beginning. And for, for whatever it is that you want to do. If you want to do minimal editing, that's okay. If you want to Photoshop to the nines, that's also okay.

Michael Sasser: 00:56:09 Yeah. If you want to Photoshop to the nines, you just explain it like I love pictures and magazines and I, and I think that if a woman were in a magazine photo that would just make them feel amazing. So I edit magazine quality retouching. Great, great. And a woman, you know, your potential client might say, that's so awesome cause I've seen, you know, Vogue magazine, what is it like to be in that magazine? And like you do that editing that way. So that's exactly what I'm looking for. Yeah. Great. That's, you know, that's totally opposite of what I do. And there's, you know, you, the goal isn't to photograph everybody, so you just do, do what it is you want to do, prep your clients and then they'll, you know, they'll want the same.

Raymond: 00:56:48 Well, Michael you have, you've shared a ton. You have came on here and you were more than generous with your time and your information. I really want to thank you so much for coming on here. Can you let the listeners know where they can find more about you online?

Michael Sasser: 00:57:03 Absolutely. So if you guys are interested in just like mostly education, I would check out my youtube channel. If you just Google, you know, my Michael Sasser on Youtube, you'll be able to find it. I've got like 30 or 35 videos. I've got one coming out today actually where I critique some of the, some of the photos of my viewers. Oh cool. I'm really excited about that as the first time I've done that. So I've got posing tips, I've got shooting tips, I've got editing tips. I've got, you know, I've made a video about a whole bunch of stuff. So that's going to be a really good resource. If you want to find me on Instagram. I, I try to post daily, I post a couple times a week, but I just have stories of things that are going on about the business and about things that are happening.

Michael Sasser: 00:57:46 So that's another fun spot to come check out, hang out, you can shoot me a message and, and keep in touch. But those are, those are probably the two places that I would check out. I've got some, I've got some paid boudoir courses if you guys are, you know, really want to get a jumpstart. But I think youtube is,uI've got a bunch of stuff on there to kind of peak your interest and started and get you started, get some insight and just,uyeah, I think it's a, I think it's been a really amazing to be able to share a ton of information that's been really helpful.

Raymond: 00:58:16 Yeah. You know, I checked out the course because I was interested in doing my research and you on, on you and I was doing my research on you. And it was really extensive. I mean, it really goes through what seems like everything, even your one hour turnaround time and sales session, which I'm really interested in. So I'm sure that if anybody's listening who is into boudoir photography and wants to check that out, they're definitely gonna do that. So again, Michael, I really do appreciate you coming on and sharing everything that you did and I look forward to keeping up with you in the future and all of your awesome youtube videos.

Michael Sasser: 00:58:48 This was awesome, man. I love I love that you're getting out and, and sharing. I do a similar a photographer spotlight where I sit down with some photographers again who are better than me and and hear their their take on business. So I think it's great. I love that you're, you know, sharing as much as you are. I think, you know, when people say I don't know, there's another photographer in my area who's charging a lot or who's at a similar pricing point and that's a bad thing. You know, if we can change the perspective of the value of boudoir and the value of photography, like everybody wins. Everybody starts paying more for photos because everybody believes they're of more value. So sharing that and helping other photographers raise a raise that level I think is just the best thing you can be doing.

Raymond: on.

Michael Sasser:



So. Awesome. Again, Michael, thank you so much for coming

All right man. I appreciate it.

of that interview with Michael Sasser. It was one of my favorites. We had a great conversation and it was interesting because it's one of those, you know, areas of photography that I really know nothing about. So coming up with questions was, was a little bit difficult for this one. But I hope that you got a good understanding of boudoir photography and if it's something interesting to you, I hope that you picked up a temper too. Because in the coming weeks we're going to have another boudoir photographer on and I would love to hear your thoughts and questions for them as well. So my biggest takeaway from this episode of the podcast was just that, just that it was interesting to hear Michael's take on getting into photography.

Raymond: 01:00:22 Obviously he, he, you know, went to college and, and picked up a kid, brought a camera with them, but it wasn't until he really got back and started to pursue it full time that he figured out what it was that his, I don't want to say calling meant sounds to, you know, out there I guess, but like what it was that he was passionate about what it was that, that he truly enjoyed shooting. And then he just went all in. And even though it was untraditional, especially for a male in this industry, he still decided to pursue it. And he has not only pursued it, but he shared how he got to when he is to become one of the most well known male boudoir photographers in the industry. And that just shows, you know, don't, don't just assume things, don't just assume things.


I want to know what you think. I want to know what you thought

Raymond: 01:01:06 If I, if I was in Michael's shoes, I probably would've said, you know, it's only, it's only women doing these things. There's no woman who would be you know, comfortable in front of a male like this, you know, because like I said, typically it's at least a lot of times it's a gift for a husband or a boyfriend or something. So being in the room with another male can be be intimidating. So I would have, you know, I just would've went in another direction, but it is so cool to hear that Michael just went all in and has, has just dominated this space. So if it's something that you love that you find that you enjoy, it don't put, you know, social as stigmas. I guess in your head, let it like, just stop you from doing something. Just go out there and do it.

Raymond: 01:01:53 If you love it, just go out there and do it, which is exactly why you're here listening to the podcast because you picked up a camera and I'm sure that you're thinking in your head right now, like, oh my gosh, there's so many. You know, photographers in my town, there's so much competition. There's no way that I could make a living doing this or be successful. Don't listen to that. Do not listen to that. If you love it, continue to do it and who cares about everybody else. And one day if you keep at it long enough, you will find success. So that is it for this week's episode of the podcast. I want you to get out there. I want you to keep shooting. I want you to focus on yourself. I want you to stay safe and I'll see you next week. That's it. I love you all.

outro: 01:02:35 If you enjoy today's podcast, please leave us a review in iTunes or your favorite podcast player and continue the conversation with Raymond and other listeners of the podcast by joining the beginner photography podcast Facebook group today. Thank you. We'll see you again next week.

BPP 150: Michael Sasser - Being a Male Boudoir Photographer

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